Mini Hiatus + Voting Feedback

[darjeeling]

Hello writers, I hope you're having a good April so far!

This is a quick announcement to let you all know that I'm putting a comm on a tiny two-week pause for a couple of reasons.

One, I'm in exams next week. Boo.

Two, although we've got a steady contingent of regular contributors, and we're getting new participants on a lot of challenges (YAY!), our voting turnout is... well, it needs some work. In a lot of weeks since the second amnesty round, we've been getting 10+ entries, but only 2-3 voters.

The voting aspect is an important part of how a challenge community functions; not just in regards to the actual points count and the finalists, but because it fosters the (friendly) competitive atmosphere that comms like this one operate on.

Obviously I don't want to make voting mandatory if you've submitted an entry, and I don't want people to throw in random votes just for the hell of it, so I'm opening the floor to suggestions on how we can get participation in this aspect of the community up to healthier levels.

Thoughts?

EDIT: Blanket disclaimer, when I'm replying to everyone's posts, I'm not shooting ideas down, I'm just bringing up points for expanding on for discussion :)

EDIT x2: Links and codes for advertising the comm in your journals can be found here!

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Challenges will resume on Wednesday, May 3rd on the regular schedule! I'm hoping two weeks will be enough to get some discussion going about this so we can implement any changes we may need.

Comments

[jordannamorgan]

I know that in my experience, I tend to not know most/all of the fandoms other people here write in, which makes me feel that I can't judge the stories confidently.

(Just a thought here, but would some people prefer their feedback on this to be screened from public view?)

[darjeeling]

I'm hoping to generate discussion between members so everyone can contribute to a solution that we're all happy with, so I don't think screening comments would be the way to go for this type of post.

That said, there's always the Mod Contact listed in the profile if someone feels that their ability to participate is being directly hampered by another member of the community.

[but_can_i_be_trusted]

First of all: Good luck on your exams! I remember those days quite well.

Secondly: I agree with jordannamorgan that it's very hard to judge stories when you're not familiar with the fandoms in question. In my case, that especially applies to the gaming-related fandoms, as I tend to stick to specific franchises in my own gaming (and can't really afford new games/systems).

Thirdly, right now, there's so much going on in my personal life that I'm amazed I've had time to write fics for any of the challenges. I'm moving up north eventually (no clue as to where or when, aside from Oregon sometime in the future). And my cat passed away eight days ago, so I'm kind of a mess emotionally, which is why I lost track of time on the most recent challenge and neither participated nor voted. (And I honestly feel guilty if I vote in a challenge where I've not made a contribution, like I'm unqualified to judge if I'm not able to compete that week. I know it's irrational, but that's just how my mind works.)

I'm amazed that, with as many great turnouts as the challenges have received in recent weeks, there would be so few votes. I have noticed that the point totals have been drastically lower, but I didn't really put two and two together.

I do feel that it would be unfair to require everyone who's submitted a story to vote, but more votes would make the competition itself more fair. And certainly making it a requirement for every member to vote, regardless of whether or not they've participated in a given challenge, simply wouldn't make sense, as Real Life does get in the way of keeping track of things.

Well, now that I've probably failed to make a useful contribution to the discussion...I hope a solution can be found.

(Also, I do agree with jordannamorgan in part, with regard to potential screening. I'm sure some members might wand want their views to be more private. At the same time, though, more open discussion might bring about a good solution to the problem.)

(Wand?! Am I suddenly channeling Harry Potter? Lol!)

[darjeeling]

I don't honestly understand the mindset behind being hesitant to gauge whether they enjoyed reading the fic or not. I think it's possible that too many people approach this as a beta reader or editor, rather than a reader-reader.

No one's asking your votes (general you) to be purely on the basis of perfect characterization, just like it's not based on who has the best grasp of proper sentence structure. It's fanfic (or original--same applies). Causal fiction. Did you (general you again) enjoy reading the short piece and does it, in your opinion, meet the challenge theme?

I've entertained the thought of implementing a percentage required voting level, like 50% equivalent? Like for example, if we have 8 entries, we need at least 4 people to vote before it can be tallied, 12 entries requires 6 people or more, etc.

The potential downsides to this are :

1. Weeks where we have few entries, it may still be only a few people deciding (although the voting would still have a minimum set length, we wouldn't just close voting after we got the first X number of votes)

2. This potentially leaves some challenges to run a long time while we wait for votes to trickle in, which doesn't really fit the whole weekly format. Especially on weeks where we get a big turnout, I don't want to make people adverse to submitting because there are already a lot of entries on a given week.

[ladybrooke]

I think the problem is that I don't have enough time to read all the stories and vote fairly (especially since, tbh, I'm unfamiliar with every fandom the past two weeks other than the one I write in. So I have to go looking up things - who is this character, what is this set in, etc, and then I still don't feel like I know enough to vote). I'd rather keep the schedule we have now for writing, but then make the voting last for a week and a half. Or make it a week for writing, week for voting. Just something where there's more time for voting, not necessarily writing, because there's little chance most weeks that I will remember to read stories by 9 pm on Wednesday if voting starts Sunday night, because that's the part of the week were almost all the responsibility falls on me for housework and such...

ETA: Good luck on your exams! I just graduated a year ago, so you have my sympathy.

[but_can_i_be_trusted]

I like that idea, of a week for writing and a fic for voting. It gives everyone more time to write, if they feel inspired, more time to read the entries, and more time to vote (provided, as john_egbert brings up, that voting reminders are posted).

[darjeeling]

I put some thoughts on the unfamiliar with series thing here , rather than copy pasting the same reply to multiple people.

[toffeecat]

I mean I can only speak for myself, but I could try to direct you to related links in some kind of author notes part of the header, if that made you more comfortable with the voting process, so that you wouldn't "waste" time searching through the mess that some canons are? Because, no biggie, can do (again, can't speak for the whole comm and don't want to)! Is that something you'd be interested in in the first place? Or anyone, for that matter?

Though imo if you have to google stuff about my fic, my job as an author has kind of failed, to say it harshly! I'm not sure you should be doing more research for reading my fic than I did for writing it haha!

[rivulet027]

I like the idea of having more time to read the stories.

[sealrat]

With regards to not feeling comfortable with judging stories that are from unfamiliar canons, I understand that, but it's worth noting that original stories often fare quite well and regularly place.

As well, while we might not be able to judge character voice exactly if we're canonblind, I think as writers we're all capable of assessing the writing quality of a piece, which is a big part of what this community is about - practicing and improving upon our writing, and having a safe and welcoming place to share it. I'd encourage everyone uncertain about judging or assessing unfamiliar canons to use that as it's own learning experience.

I think perhaps it shouldn't be a requirement to vote if you participate, but an expectation. Not strictly mandatory, so it gives people some leeway for RL things.

[but_can_i_be_trusted]

As far as original fic is concerned, everyone's in the same boat. We all have the same degree of familiarity with our (and others') original characters. It requires less of a leap of faith than fandom does. The two times I placed with original fics, the first was meant to be a Doctor Who fic, that somehow got away from me and decided that it wanted to be original, and the other was a deliberate original fic that went in a different direction from anything I'd intended. So it's an apples-to-oranges comparison.

I'm honestly not all that sure that a writer of any ability can accurately assess another writer's story's quality if they're not familiar with characters in certain fandoms. I'll admit that there've been times when I've read (and voted for) stories in fandoms I'm unfamiliar with that have triggered a strong emotional response--but that leaves me still in the dark about what's going on, and whether or not their portrayal of characters is accurate--or even, in some cases, what media the story is based on. Like I mentioned before, it's a leap of faith. The ones familiar with such-and-such a fandom have parachutes and nets. The unfamiliar ones are just hoping for the best.

[masu_trout]

Good luck on your exams!

As for voting, I have some potential ideas. (No promises they're any good, haha.)

1.) Increase the visibility of voting--I know I often see the vote post go by, think, oh, I should do this when I get the chance, and then just... forget. Perhaps the voting post could be made sticky each week, if it isn't already? Or perhaps reminders could be posted 12 hours or a day or w/e before voting closes?

2.) Incentivize voting for challenge participants--perhaps, similar to hitting that bonus, submitting your own votes could give you an extra point or some other similar bonus on your entry?

3.) Maybe just some sort of Vote FAQ or something, emphasizing the fact that you don't need canon knowledge to vote? It sounds like that barrier might be turning some people off from voting, but personally I think with such short stories it's probably something that can be worked around.

[ladybrooke]

As somebody who doesn't have canon knowledge and is uncomfortable voting because of that (as mentioned above) for me working around it could be done easily - I just need more time. I don't want to judge a story without even cursory knowledge of the conventions and such within that fandom (because that'd be like judging a Western while only knowing how romance novels are written, in my mind).

What makes me uncomfortable is being expected to judge something when I don't have time to read the stories a couple of times and make notes (which I would do even within my fandom, to catch things I didn't the first time through) and look up things that I'm unsure if they fit within that.

Also, not related to this, but not having to fill out the whole three choices would also improve my chances of voting each week. When I voted, I was staring at the form when I reached third place and going "But I don't have a really strong feeling about which of these four stories is the best, so I guess I'll just go for a random one of the ones left I like".

I like your idea of reminders, though! If we keep the same schedule, that at least makes it possible that I'll see it before and decide to give up some sleep or something to make a choice.

[but_can_i_be_trusted]

I agree on the reminders; I think that would be a huge help. Incentives are a pretty good thought, too.

But a note in the FAQ about the un-necessity of canon knowledge is something that I have slight misgivings about. Knowing that I don't have to know anything about, say, 'Supernatural'...that isn't going to make voting for or against a fanfic based on it any easier. In the case of an AU, then the problem is eliminated, since canon doesn't apply to an alternate universe. But stories taking place in-universe are trickier to assess.

[darjeeling]

1. Voting reminders would be easier if I could schedule posts in advance on dreamwidth, because I don't always have time to post them "live". I do try to keep the plurk updated, although I know not everyone uses that platform. (It's big among role players, who still make up the majority of fandom people on DW, and I can update it from my phone).

2. I'm not sure whether that's incentive or bribing... the idea of having to "pay" people to participate in 50% of the community activity so they take interest doesn't give me much sense that anyone's actually interested in it.

3. I can add that as a note to the FAQ, but ultimately that's going to be something our members need to get over in their own heads, not because it's in the rules. :(

[toffeecat]

Good luck on your exams! (Boo indeed!)

I do understand the hesitation to vote for entries written in an unfamiliar fandom, as I don't know much about many fandoms you guys write for; but I try to treat them as original fiction, evaluate whether or not I am intrigued by the author's style and give them the benefit of the doubt regarding their charaters (if that's the right way to call it), because if I research the background for one fic, I have to invest a similar amount of time in the other entries as well, and I have neither the time nor the drive to do that for one fic, let alone all of them tbh sorry if that comes across as rude I'm just a very exhausted human being in general! That being said, I am way harder on fandoms I know because I know them, so, well... take that with a ton of salt. My voting is flawed anyway.

A reminder isn't a bad idea, especially if the voting period is extended, like one day before the voting period ends, as said before? I understand that everyone here has quite a schedule ;) !

As incentives go, I agree that forcing people to vote for entries doesn't help but either ends in less people posting to the comm, or casting random votes which is somewhat unfair towards the others? While I like john_egbert's suggestion of giving another bonus point for casting a vote, and have toyed with the suggestion to allow people to vote for themselves, but only in third place, so not if there are less than five entries, and only if the other places are filled in as well; however, neither would completely keep people from skewing the overall vote count by casting random votes if they don't care too much? (Which, to be fair, doesn't apply to anyone of you as far as I know, but I felt like I at least wanted to put it out there...)

[darjeeling]

Nah, not rude! But I take the same approach -- if I know a fandom, cool, if not, treat it like original fiction. There is NO WAY I'm doing canon research before reading a story to decide if I enjoyed it or not. That's what people pay editors for :P

I cannot honestly think of a way that allowing people to vote for themselves won't end up being abused. Not because I think people are dishonest, but removing that option removes most of the opportunity for bias.

[m_findlow]

Best of luck for your exams. A fortuitous time for a break given the contest week at fic_promptly next week which had me stressing as to how I was going to manage both. :)

It's a tough one. I've only been with the comm a few months, and one of the reasons I didn't join sooner was definitely the time factor. I figured if I couldn't dedicate time to read and vote on all the other entries, I didn't want to submit pieces. For me, it was just considered good courtesy to give everyone else's fics the same level of attention. Making time to read them all each week is something I force myself to make time for. It is a tight deadline between submission and voting, so perhaps simply extending it to a week for writing and a week for voting might help.

As for the Fandom issue, I take a different view. For me, most of the Fandoms are foreign to me, but rather than try and get bogged down in researching them to understand the characters, I let the writers do the work for me. Original fic writers have to do this every time they put pen to paper, and kudos to them for managing to pull it off so splendidly. I think if it's a characterisation issue, it's probably going to come through in the writing that the character is genuine and their motivations clear. If a story is engaging and the characters feel real, then that's enough for me. Part of the challenge for any writer is to take a story and make it feel real for someone, so that they engage with the characters on their journey, however short. Sometimes too many characters in such a short piece can make you feel a little lost, or a lot of back story that is needed to give the piece context, but perhaps that's also part of the challenge, in not only writing for a Fandom you know and enjoy, but being able to share a little glimpse of it to someone else who's never seen it before, and arming them with enough information to understand it.

[badly_knitted]

Very good points there about arming the rader with enough infornmation to understand what's going on without any prior knowledge. That's one of the things I look for. If I don't understand what's going on, that fic won't be among the ones I vote for. In some ways, that makes this community even more importnt for writers, helping us learn to incorporate enough background into our fics that even people who don't know the characters or setting can follow what's happening.

(Not sure how good I am at that myself though, lol!)

[darjeeling]

Letting the writer supply the context is a great way to do it, I like it :)

[badly_knitted]

I agree with toffeecat, I'm not familiar with most of the fandoms so I treat those I don't know as original fic and vote based on how well written they are and how much I enjoy them as a reader. I assume the writer knows their characters and setting well enough that they'll most likely get that part right, and with game fandoms, surely people write the characters as they would play them, or something, so that would account for differences in perception anywsy... (Sorry, I don't play computer games at all, so I don't really understand how they work).

I don't automatically vote for the fandoms I know either, it all depends on which story appeals to me most as a reader, and I'll admit I've become rather fond of a number of characters I know nothing about beyond what I've read here.

I do think a longer period for voting might be useful, and the week for writing, week for voting could work, giving people with less available time a better chance of reading everything.

Maybe we need more members, even if they just join to read and vote rather than to participate. After a few weeks, such folks might even start submitting their own stories... (I'm the eternal optimist).

[darjeeling]

I am definitely open to anyone's suggestions for how to attract new members! I've done the rounds on advert comms, and promoted on plurk and tumblr, but if anyone can think of a better place to share?

To be honest, the best way to bring in new people is for existing members to add the occasional link or recommendation post in their own journals or fic communities. Direct word of mouth always carries more weight than a random blurb you scroll by.

[samuraiter]

I admit it, I'm a voting slacker, but that's my own fault, not the comm's fault. I keep track of so many 'fic-related communities here on DW that a lot of things slip through the cracks when I'm scrolling through my Reading page. On top of that, I'm another one who often sees unfamiliar fandoms in the list, and there's not a whole lot I can do with that. Maybe more time to vote would help, but, really, it's down to me being more attentive, honestly.

EDIT — Also: Good luck on those exams!

[darjeeling]

Is there a method of reminder you think would help?

ETA: Not accusing, I'm just wondering if there's a better method for delivery.

[healyg]

As someone who has voted like once ever, I have some thoughts.

1. Definitely get rid of the requirement to vote for all three rankings. It's nice, but not really necessary, and there are times where it's hard to pick a third (or second) fic to vote for.

2. Don't make it a requirement for authors to vote, but do incentivize voting, whether with bonus points or what have you. I was pretty distracted this week so I forgot to vote, but if I knew there would have been something extra on the line I would have made it a higher priority.

3. Voting reminders are a pretty good idea; I say we use them. I'm a little more iffy on the extended voting periods, though; seems like it'd just give people more time to procrastinate.

4. Finally, and I realize this might be controversial, but have you considered relaxing the rules about authors talking about their entries/the challenge before voting is over? It might bring in some views, and maybe votes, too.

[darjeeling]

1. Unfortunately this would change the fundamental way the community structure is set up, so that part will be staying.

2. As mentioned in the initial post, the reason I'm asking for people's input is so I don't have to make voting mandatory for entrants.

4. The rules say you can't preview or showcase your entries anywhere else - you can't post them in other communities and journals outside this comm until the voting closes. That doesn't have anything to do with talking about them or mentioning them on dreamwidth or any other site. I just don't want complete fic copies floating around in other locations before the vote closes.

[pipisafoat]

Personally, I go through phases of "constant DW" and then "no DW", so really nothing you can do to get me to vote when I'm not on DW at all! But when I'm here, I think a reminder when there's 1/4 of the voting period left or so. Actually, the most helpful thing would be if I tracked the #voting tag to get an email reminder when it's up, but that's on me and not you. *goes to do that now*

You could add in to the voting posts a short reminder like "vote now, then promote this community/this round/this post in your own journal and encourage your friends to vote!" to perhaps get more people in the comm & voting. idk if that would help, but it's a thought!

[darjeeling]

I'm exploring the option of setting my phone to generate a post-by-email reminder, since you can't schedule posts, but it still requires me to actually send the email and if I have time/internet connection to send the email, I have it to make the post, so I'm not sure how feasible that's going to work out being... :-/

Tracking the voting tag will be a big help for me, thank you!